Arthur

A Conversation with Arthur Williams

Joel Slotnikoff

Arthur Williams appears on Clara McDaniel's "Unwanted Child" CD and on the Big Bad Smitty CD, "Cold Blood." As always his harp playing is the absolute low-down real thing. He made his European debut under his own name at the Blues Estafette. Here's what Blues & Rhythm: The Gospel Truth had to say about it: "As already mentioned, the opener in the small hall was Arthur Williams, infamous as being the harp player on Frank Front's Phillips International (sic) album. Based now around St. Louis, he came with a rocking back-up band. Jimmy Lee Kennett on guitar and Bob Lohr on piano gave us the Chuck Berry influence, very effectively too, whilst Gus Thornton laid down a steady bass line. Arthur's animated set featured a healthy dose of Excello blues such as "King Bee" along with a deliciously swampy "Since I Met You Baby" and standard numbers like "C.C. Rider" and "You Got Me Runnin'", before being joined on vocals by Bobo (pronounced Boo Boo) Davis from behind the drum kit - a thunderous drummer and a thunderous vocalist, he and Arthur teamed up on a Wolf medley which started out as "Poor Boy" before transforming itself into "Airplane Man" with lots of both apparently rehearsed repertoire and unrehearsed repartee between the pair. A storming "Going Back To East (sic: St.) Louis" had the crowd jumping. We'd certainly like to hear more from both Bobo and Arthur, who gave a good impression of being as much of a 'rascal' as Sonny Boy was, no bad comparison actually."

Arthur played all the harmonica on Frank Frost's Jewel album. Frank played piano. The only harp Frank plays is on the single "Harpin On It" released from the album which is a duet with Arthur. Here's Arthur's story.

BORN IN MISSISSIPPI

Where were you born?
Tunica, Mississippi. July 8th, 1937. In the west end of my grandfather's house. Old double, like log cabin type thing, outside Tunica, not in town.
Do you have brother's and sisters?
Just me. I'm a loner.
Tell me about your family.
Oh, they're beautiful. Mother and father. They seperated eventually after they took me to Chicago, actually Argo, Illinois. I moved from Argo to Chicago.

CHICAGO 1939

How old were you when you moved to Chicago?
I was two years old. They moved me to Chicago. I couldn't move then. I basically grew up in Chicago. I stayed there like nineteen years.
How much schooling did you get?
Twelve years. High school. I did that in Chicago.
Did anyone in your family play music?
My father,Ollie Williams, does, he plays a little harmonica. That's where I got my inspiration from, 'bout ten or twelve. I's about ten or twelve years old and the old man kept the harmonicas around the house all the time. And behind him doin' this here so I picked 'em up. He'd buy one for me. Or give me his old one. And I started listening on down the line to Little Walter, inspired me to the max, so I got off into it.
What kind of music did your father play?
Buttcut down to the max old beat stuff. Baby Please Don't Go, and all of that kind of stuff.
Did he play out?
No he didn't, he just liked it for himself, and he never did get too pretty good with it. But he played enough to where I could understand where he was comin' from. My father, he plowed the mules, he worked in steel mills, that's where I got my inspiration from. He used to keep harmonicas all the time. I started playin' harmonica with this old, what they call Oh Susanna Don't You Cry For Me. There used to be a book that go with the harmonica. They don't have that anymore. All blow, do this and do that, and that's how I learned my scales.
Were you listenin' to records or the radio?
Yeah, lemme see, at that time ...Sonny Boy Williamson and all that stuff, I was listenin' to such as that.
Can you remember the first time you played out?
Let's see, who did I play with? Oh, Melvin. remember Mel Drake? He be down there every night at James Spraggins'. He play guitar. The old man that you see me talkin' to all the time. Dirty old man. I'll show him to you. Hey, we workin' on harp playin', some of everything then. Cherry Pink and Apple Blossom White. Hey I'm not basically just a blues musician now. I can play some jazz, some whatever, Redtop. I play that, but I like the blues more so now.
The first time you played out with Melvin, where was it?
Cotton Club, Argo Illinois, that's 7500 west on 63rd street. I was seventeen or eighteen. I snuck in. "Get back dude, get back. Can you play so and so, such and such," I said "Gimme a chance man. Listen here a minute." My timing was bad, I remember that. My timing was bad, but I had the notes, up here. I put 'em out on the harmonica.
Who else did you play with in Chicago?
I played with the whole group that used to be Jimmy Reed's background. Little short fingered Eddie Taylor I played with Eddie Taylor, Elmore James, I played with Muddy Waters, I played with, what his name? he came in there in that Swedish Hall in Evanston, Willie Mabon. I played with old blind L.B. Brown. You remember him? You don't know nothin' about him? He was a bad dude. He was a piano player. L.B. Brown was mean man. They get to fightin' in that joint, L.B. stand up in that corner and pull that knife out. Man, look here, don't fall up on him 'cause he done cut anybody. Could be you. Think about it. Muck's in Argo, Illinois, that where we was. Little Walter stood in the doorway one day lookin' at me play, while we rehearsin' at L.B. Brown's house. I didn't know who he was. "Say man, you know who that was?" Had one of those big apple caps on, all acey deucy and everything. Say "You know who that was?" "No, who was it?" "That Little Walter man. You kickin' his sound." I was about seventeen then. Hey, over in Jewtown in Chicago, 14th and Maxwell. I played 37th and Indiana with Muddy Waters, damn near every weekend, me and James Cotton. James Cotton is from my hometown. He's from Dundee and I'm from Tunica. That was the same time I lived in Chicago, during my schooldays and after. That's right.
What was the name of the club?
Joe's Corner, no I'm lyin', Smitty's Corner.
What hours would you play?
Hey. I wasn't actually hired, I would sit in.
What time would the band play?
From nine to one. Somethin' like that.
What do you remember about Muddy?
Pat Hare. Pat Hare would hafta sit in the.....they had a limitation as to how many people could be on the bandstand. Pat Hare had to sit in like a little cubbyhole back around near the bathroom. Pat Hare'd be sittin' back in there playin' guitar. Pat a bad man. He's bad. That used to be Junior Parker and Bobby Bland's player. Muddy stole him in '58 and took him to Chicago. For real. I hope I'm not makin' up. Don't quote me. I'm sayin that I think it was '58. From West Helena, Arkansas.

HOWLIN' WOLF

You met Wolf?
How many times?
When did you first meet him?
In Chicago. At Silvio's. Lounge under the L track. I was talking with him about Bob Parker. Robert Parker was a dude with one leg that played drums, he had the band. That's the dude that we went from Mississippi to Memphis to be on WDIA. That's right. Mooha Williams, Ford Nelson. Ford Nelson and Mooha, they were the spokesmen over the show. Somethin' about some kinda syrup. Wasn't but fifteen minutes. Had to have your self together, have your shit in a bag, know what you're fixin' to do before you get in there. So you can be through in the fifteen minute period.
Wolf blew harmonica.
Yeah. Yes he did.
Did you ever play with him?
No, not really. Never played with him. Never even set in with him. But I been around him. At Silvio's we were talkin about Bob Parker "Say man, _____" Howlin Wolf to the bandstand, Howlin Wolf to the bandstand. "They callin' ya Wolf." "Goddam it, that's what I got them paid for." No shit.

RETURN TO MISSISSIPPI 1958

When did you leave Chicago?
Actually when I left Chicago it was about '58. I left Chicago after high school and went back to Mississippi. I was through with school and I wanted to do what I wanted to do.
Did you go there for the music?
That's exactly what I went there for. I went to Jewtown, I bought me a little crackerbox amplifier. Had two inputs on it. God dog, they were cookin' when I got there that evening, Saturday evening. They was firin' up down there. Jimmy Greer was kickin' that guitar in the ass man. And I walked in there, I had four or five harmonicas. "Goddamn boy, shit, come over in here." That's the way we did like that.
How long did you go back for?
I was drifting back and forth.(how did he travelI. I had a wife after I was 18 years old. I married a girl named Geraldine Sanders.
Who did you play with then?
King Biscuit Boys. I played with them.. James Peck Curtis, Stackhouse, Dudlow. I played with 'em all. Dudlow was a piano player. Big Mr. Five by Five, in a sense, that's right. And on down the line after that situation that happened between me and Frank Frost and Sam Carr and them. We would go over there like on the day they were gonna play and we were all off. It had rained over at our place and we couldn't work. I'd go over there and sit in with them on KFFA Helena, Arkansas.
Who else?
B.C. Carlisle. He was a drummer. We were called the Thunderbirds at that time. Played a juke called Walnut Lake, the lake was right behind the place. I played for Conway Twitty. I used to play down on Moon Lake. When he was out of town, me, Frank Frost and Sam Carr, we played there. Also got caught off in a damn situation that I did not like but I couldn't do nothin' about. We played up until quittin' time and the guy say "Where y'all goin?" "We're fixin' to go home man." Say "No, you're not goin' home now. I want to hear some more music." The joint was out in the lake, on poles. Say "Hey, what do you mean? We goin' home, man." Say "No, you ain't goin' home yet. "What you mean?" Say "We want to hear some more music. You know it's a whole lotta water out there." This is for real, I'm not bullshittin' you man. "It's a whole lotta water out there" "What you mean?" "Can you swim?" and all that kinda shit. So we played some more music until they got tired of listenin'. No shit. Moon Lake is outa Dundee Mississippi. Dundee's here, Moon Lake's down the side, and it's wide, long deep and wide. No bottom and no sides. Think about it. Hey, whadya think I did?
Played.
And guess what, got paid in a check. Me, Frank Frost and Sam Carr, Big Jack. It took us about a week to get the damn check cashed. And how much money we made? About sixty five dollars.
What would Frank play?
Frank was playin' guitar.
So it was Frank and Jack?
Yeah. But what was happenin' was Frank had never been no....he blowed, he used to use the harmonica with a rack. And just chord and play along with that. He got good sounds. Damn good sounds. But he just wasn't affiliated with the harmonica as much as he is with the guitar.
Would Jack play bass?
That's right. And lead, he played lead too. Jack is very versatile, he can go back and forth far as that's concerned, but meantime Frank Frost was basically a guitar player.
When did you first meet those guys?
Just before I got ready to go in service. Ain't that a damn shame. I was in Tunica. I was livin' at Mom Green's. Mom Green's was actually a service house but I had a place at the back that belonged to me. I had one little old room, like a kitchenette. Had a kitchen down here and a bedroom here. And that where I lived. At that time I had a lady called Rosalee. Hey me and my other family in Chicago, we had broke up and everything so I'm down there. About eight months later I gets drafted in the service. But now we played for Fred Donaldson.
What'd he have?
He had a juke house across the lake, Bear Lake, it was so muddy sometimes, couldn't hardly get in or out of that motherfucker, but we went anyhow.
Did it have a name?
No, because they called it Little Fred's. His son be over here You know Clara? The lady that sings on Friday nights (at Spraggin's Hacienda) That's Little Fred's son's wife. Little Fred dead and gone. But he ain't gone for me. I don't forget nobody.
What was that place like?
Oh man. What the hell you talkin' 'bout. Shit. Hey man, we go to Fred's, shit, like see the sun is shinin' now? We go there in the evenin', oh four five o' clock, six o' clock, seven o' clock, start playin', we don't leave there 'til daylight the next day. And Fred, his wife named Gussie, oh man, you talkin' about me and Frank Frost and Sam Carr could put away so much whiskey. Fred got tired of it one night. You know what he did? Said "Gussie, bring me one of them half gallons, give me a half gallon jug." And had it about half full. Drinkin' out of that jug, just sniffin' it though your nostrils hey, you're gettin' high before you get to the drink. Okay? Glb Glb Glb Glb Glb. When we left there he still had a whole lotta whiskey in that half gallon. Why? A half pint ain't shit.
Most of the music you learned then...
Was behind those type people. Oh I listened to Walter a whole lot now on the radio. That's right, and I bought the records. Or either my Dad had 'em.
What would go on at Bear Lake?
Corn whiskey, gamblin', and all that.
Dancin', drinkin'?
They had chitlins, and catfish and buffalo. Shit, hey, Miss Gussie and them they kicked it up. Fred had four or five daughters and they was entertainment, they come out and served you and everything. They danced with you.
Who would come to that place?
Oh, hey, country down to earth people that like to listen at some... never had any problem too much. Every now and then somebody would get, you know, off into somethin. No shootin' might be a little cuttin', somethin' like that. But hey man, it was just like, what did Wolf say?, Wang Dang Doodle all night long. That what it was like. If I'm lyin' the good Lord in the sky. I played on 8th Street, The Brown Jug, West Helena. Hey, just a jump up band. Junior Parker used to play there regular. At one time. I been around, I'm like horseshit. Hey, I played for peanuts, I played for nothin', hey I played, sometimes peanuts smelled like steak to me, I didn't have no money. Down in Tunica Mississippi playin' with Robert Parker. The Silver King. I played on WDIA every Monday and Thursday. After I leave Chicago in '58 we did that everyday but they got smart. We used to travel from Tunica to Memphis, every Monday and Thursday for a fifteen minute show. They got smart enough to start doin' it in the Whitestone Cafe in Tunica over the phone. Think about it.
Who would play with you on that?
Jimmy Greer. He dead and gone. But he was one of the baddest suckers I ever seen in my life.
Guitar?
Yessir. Jimmy Greer. I want you to stress that point cause I loved the man like I a daddy.
Would he sing?
He sung his ass off.
Did he ever record?
No he never did. I played with Robert Nighthawk.
Where was that?
Down in Mississippi.
When?
Same era. Same time. Up until I got ready to go to the service. Hey, I did some of all of it, man. I was a presser in the cleaners, George Blount in Tunica, Hardface, that's my cousin. Al Clanton, ever heard of him? Hey he was a rich black man down there in Mississippi. He dead. But his wife still got the place, I think. Meantime, hey, I been all over man. I played with Memphis Minnie. I played with Memphis Minnie right across from Hardface's over at J.D. McDonald's. Yessir. Piano Red, I played with him, Albino Red, you know him? from Memphis. Yeah, I met him. Porkchop. You know Porkchop? Porkchop used to play with him. Drummer. Shit.

SERVICE/DETROIT 1961-1962

You got drafted in the service...
January 3rd, 1961. I stayed in the service until December 7, '62. See, it should have been January, I got early out. For the Christmas thing.
What did they call you at that time?
They called me Little Willie. I played all over Detroit. I went 'to the service and I was stationed, after basic, I left Fort Hood, Texas, I goed to Detroit, Michigan. A Battery 500, 17th Artillary. I was in missiles. I was a ABAR operator. Alternating Battery Assisted Radar. I had a little unit wasn't as big as that front room there. We plotted and tracked planes. I used to play with Jimmy Lee, that was a lady, she was married to the man.
She would sing?
No sir. She just had the band. I played Swannee, Ohio, on a fifty mile radius past. I wasn't supposed to be out of the area because if they call red status I'd a been out o' pocket. When I was tired I couldn't make it back.
Who was in that band?
Jimmy, Jimmy Jr, and Curtis, and what his name, what we call him, he was a bad drummer, little short dude, oh man. what did we call him, we had a little nickname for him, something like a lover....Don Juan! Don Juan. Hey, I don't be bullshittin', I'm real. Don Juan was bad man. And hey, we were so poor in the tips, we didn't have uniforms. Shit I hit them, what you call them, Goodwill places. Got us all some tuxes. Black stripe, silk stripe down the pants leg, and red checkered coats. with cummerbunds, and pleated fronts. Shit, we played it.
What kind of places would you play?
The Congo Lounge, The White House, and Green Pit Barbecue, on Jefferson. in Detroit. Yessir. Hey, Sonny Boy used to drink a half pint in two swallows. I'm talkin' about Rice Miller. Hey, a coke, half a coke, half of that whiskey, next time it's all the way through. "All right Billy, I think we fixin' to do somethin' here now." That's him. Hey, I met him in Detroit at the Congo Lounge, say "Hey, dere my boy is. I'm crazy about his momma." Never seen me in his life, he put me in the dozen, that quick. I said "Okay, pop, what's goin' on man?" "Say look here, come on up here." We's at the Congo Lounge, he was dyin' then. He was so thin his suspenders would hold his pants up. He would turn, he was still switchin' around at the waste. Say "Come on over here, son" Say "I want you to run (?) while I singin'." Don't Start Me To Talkin', I'll tell everything I know. Next thing I knew he was dead. I told you I was in Detroit at the time. He went back to Helena or somewhere and died.
Who else did you play with in Detroit?
John Lee Hooker. I played with him. The thing he put out called Drugstore Woman, he wanted me to play with him, but there wan't nobody there but me and him. He'd never make a change, never make the turn. I make a turn, but he just..he still goin' du-buh, du-buh, du-buh. He had a big fat niece or somethin' in there, that's supposed to be my consolation. She bring me a little beer and everything, I couldn't handle it. Got in bed with my own.

Mississippi 1962-1972

Then what happened when you got out?
I went back to Mississippi and I met my wife. My lady that I got now, Ethel Williams. I drove tractor. I drove combine. Cotton picker. Dirt buckets, land planes. Everything.I was in Mississippi for ten years. Plantation to plantation.
And playin out....
On the weekends.
And that's when you would have been playin' with Sam...
Sam Carr. His daddy, you didn't know that Robert Nighthawk was his daddy.

THE JEWEL ALBUM

That was when you cut the album for Jewel?
We cut that record in what '64 after I come outa the service.
How did it come about?
Well, hey, we just jumped up and said we gonna do somethin'.
Was there an agent?
Scotty Moore. Scotty Moore asked us to come to Nashville to do that. Scotty Moore used to come down to Mississisipi and listen at us, he and his wife. And that's how we got there.
You went to Nashville to cut?
That's right. Music City Recording Company. From ten 'til ten. I knew there was something wrong with that. Because why? You can't have that much studio time and be able to pay for it when you ain't got no money. Huh? How can you do that?
The record company pays.
Okay, but who gettin all the money?
The record company.
That's what I know. (Laughter)
Did you get paid for the session?
I ain't got a damn thing for that. Only thing they sent us was a damn box full of fuckin' forty fives to distribute among the people to let 'em know what we doin', what we did. We put 'em on jukeboxes down in Mississipi. Dundee, Lula, Tunica, and all that shit.
Did Scotty Moore produce the session?
He was there. Somebody else was back in the back doin the...
Dials.
Right.
But Scotty ran the session?
Right. I and Frank Frost had contracts. But, hey, as far as I could read we only got ten percent. You understand what I'm sayin'. And this dude, Chuck, I told you that Big Jack did not play a damn thing on there, this dude named Chuck, white boy, he's a bad son of a bitch now. God love him.
He was playing guitar?
He was the background, bassman.
And Frank played guitar?
That's right.
You played the harmonica.
That's right.
And Sam was drummin'...
Right. Frank only played with me on somethin' that's not even on that album,
Harp and Soul. [Jim O'Neal confirms, and so will close listening, that every harmonica note on the orange Jewel album is Arthur.] See, he gettin' all the credit for what he and I did. Actually we did it together. In a sense, but he didn't do all of it. But now what we were doin', we were makin' up stuff at times. Write it out.
Right there on the spot?
Yeah. We took nothin' with us. No material at all. No tapes, nothin'. So that's why it took us so long I imagine. But hey, what the hell. We didn't take nothin' to the Smitty thing did we? Nope. Goddam, so, it was bang, on the point. We was about the business. But now hey, Chuck gave me about thirteen harmonicas, goddam man, say "Shit, you can have these." The dude, Chuck, if you watch the label close you'll see his name on there. Down in the fine print, lower. Chuck's somethin'. Chuck bad. On that bass guitar he was damn near as good as Durious (Montgomery on the Smitty album) and Durious bad. Durious can do what he wanna do. Durious can take that guitar and make it sound like a lead. He can pick it out.

ST. LOUIS: 1972 TO PRESENT

Photo: Bill Greensmith

Why did you come here?
Well, I had a problem with a dude down there. My wife's uncle died and the people came there to the funeral, okay? So they woke me up like twelve, one o'clock at night. They wanted to see people before they go to the funeral. So I get in my little ride, start drivin' around and carryin' on, and that mornin' I went to tell them that I didn't feel up to par to go to work that Sunday. I worked all the fuckin' week now. He wanted me to work Sunday. I told him I'd work half a day Sunday. But now I went to tell him that I wasn't feelin up to par. "Son that's bullshit, bullshit. You say you were gonna work" I say "I'm not able to work today." I say "I been up all night. My people came in because to go do a funeral." He couldn't understand this. So he tells me "Goddamit, hell bullshit. Albert, Albert, come back. We gonna throw this gig in the lake." That ain't gonna happen to me. He used the "N" word on me man. He reached back in the back of his pickup truck, grabbed a piece of iron, a damn plow foot, say "What you think you're doin' with that?" I say "You got the wrong people now. I don't play that. You got the wrong man." "Huuunnn, goddamit, huun, goddam, get off the place in five minutes." He had a tendency, he buy a car for the guys on the place, he never bought me nothin' 'cause I bought my own. I didn't like that. So he ran up to my car, gonna snatch my keys out. "What the hell you doin' man? This is my car, you ain't put a dime on this." "Goddam, goddam bullshit, bullshit, get off the place in five minutes." "Okay." I got in the car, went over to my house, started packin' then. That's how I came to St. Louis. We started packin', I left nothin' there but a deepfreeze cause I couldn't carry it, it was too big.
Why St. Louis?
My sister-in-law was already here. Her sister. Knowin' that's her sister, she's gonna follow. Okay? So we kinda had a little somethin' established. from the getgo. Someplace to live. Until you do better.
Where was that?
On McPherson, 5911 McPherson. Okay. Then I finally moved down on Kingsbury. which was right around the corner. I got myself a place. And ever since then I been here.
What kind of work did you find?
Oh man, goddam. Shit. The first job I had was at Herman Oak. Leather. You know where that is?
Down on the river.
That's right. Goddam you talkin' about a stink, oh man. They gave me some boots with a hole in it, pair o' gloves must have been leaking. I lost a fingernail and a toenail. Why, why? I don't know what's happenin with me inside now. I'm not hurtin'. All right then. Ain't that a bitch man. Look here, I worked there one day they put me through everything in the damn plant, I split hides out in the back, them old salted hides come off the train, shit, scooopsciii with that blade. They were usin' me to be scapegoat for these guys on piecework. See, I was helpin' them make more money than they woulda made. Ain't that a damn shame.
What kinda money would you make?
Shit, I think they payin' like four somethin'. I started at 905 [905 Liquor] after Herman Oak. I was a stockman.
When you got here where did you play?
Sadie's Personality Bar with long head, Bankhead. Tommy Bankhead. With Boo [Davis] and what's his name, he dead?
John.
Boo and John Davis. Doc Terry. Not Perry. Terry. Right up here at Hamilton and Martin Luther King. Used to be a Sunday place for liquor. Played there. Fridays and Saturdays. Actually I wasn't hired. I met Tommy through my brother in law. My brother-in-law, they were havin' somethin' on Kienlen off of Skinker. That club back in the back. It's a hall, big hall. It's down Kielen back in the hole. It's a big club, back there, they rented, it's a hall, and big stage. At that time Bankhead had a bad man on organ. He drove truck, but he messed around some kind of way, one of them hot lines, and he had that dump truck and he raised up and electrocuted himself. That was '72. And I met Tommy Bankhead at that club. Hey, I really liked the accoustics at that place. I used to play with Tommy at Sadie's Personality Bar. I played with Doc Terry and them up on Hamilton and Martin Luther King.
When you played with Doc you'd both play harp?
Hey, we'd switch off. Switch off, do a twin thing sometimes. Like me and Frank used to do. I played with, what's the dude's name played "Can a White Boy Sing the Blues"?
Billy Peek.
I played with him down at Mama's,on Euclid and Martin Luther King.
The Paradise.
Yeah, he was down there. He was just sittin' in too. So we played together.
Did you ever play at Helen's [Moonlight Lounge]?
Hell yeah, Big George and them, shit, Moonlight Lounge that used to be one of my regular spots. Hey, just go sit in 'cause I wan't hired. That place, actually they tell me that Albert King owned that place. That's what I heard.

EAST ST. LOUIS/DAVIS BROTHERS

Would you go to the East Side?
I went. Guess what? Friend of mine took me over there, Curtis. MItchell. Took me over there and the same old dude, what his name, that's gonna be with Smitty tonight Walter Westbrook. Couldn't get on the bandstand. Period. "Hububububu, How long you been playin'?" The same way he sings. The same way he talks. "Howhhowwehw." I sat there and I sat there waitin' on to be called. He didn't call me. That's the only time I went over there, but after that I started goin' there with Boo and them. After Boo started playin' over there. After I met John and Boo Davis. I started goin with them.
That was at Tubby's?
The Red Room, the Red Room. That was on up, damn near into the eighties.
So you played with John Davis.
Before he died. Shit. He was one of the baddest, man. He had that Jimmy Reed thing down pat, that was my style at that time. Hey, and we could kick it. Hey, he was the closest thing to Frank Frost and Sam Carr I ever seen yet. Understand what I'm sayin'. He played that open string top like two guitars. You know how you can do that, leave that one ringin', playin' below that one. Hey, he was like that. John was bad man. And Boo was kickin' in the ass with them tubs and hollerin'.
Did you meet the father?
No I didn't. But I met S.L. You know S.L.?
Rusty.
Rusty, that's right. Same one, S.L.
He would play with 'em too back then?
Yeah. At that time.
You would sit in with them?
That's right. They tell me S.L. done had a storke or something. He ain't up to par now. He came out on his birthday the other week. He played an hour.
So you've done that regularly since then?
Yeah, every now and then, but no every week thing.
When you go, do you stay the whole time?
Hey, when I open the door, goddam, the sun be shinin' in my face so I shoulda been home.
How do you do that bein' 54 years old? When I go over there it takes me a week...
To recuperate?
To recuperate.
I'm hip man. Say hey, it takes alot out of you. But now I 'come accustomed to that 'cause I been doin' it all my life. Damn near. And my wife, she understands that. See, she might have rocks in her jaw when I get home but she know where I'm comin' from.
She knows it ain't another woman.
That's right. I don't take no women, I don't mess around. I'm scared of them people I'm afraid of 'em 'cause they got a thing out there now incurable and I don't need that. See, me and this lady been together 27 years. What else I need. As they say, "Fuck the dumb shit." Think about it. Look at the family I got, see how big that boy is there. He didn't come from no bullshit.

BIG BAD SMITTY

When did you first meet Smitty?
I don't know actually. Where in the hell did I run up on Smitty? Smitty ran up on me I expect. More than likely. Someplace that I was playin'. Just settin' in too. I never had no gigs, straight out gigs, with nobody, period. I wasn't the sponsor of the gig is what I'm sayin'.
Why was that ?
I don't like the responsibility. I don't want to be leader or nothin'. I don't want to be leader of the band. It's a headache. Why? Listen to me good. I was in a band that was about business. I don't like no bullshit, chickenshit group. Look here. We rehearsed at my house down in Mississippi. We rehearsed at Frank's house. We rehearsed at Sam's house. They do not rehearse. I don't like a jump up situation. "I heard this, I got the highlights of it." Highlights ain't shit. What about the other part? "I got this part," but when you get there and you start doin' it you did yours own self thing, kind of rehearsal on your own. Hey, lemme tell you somethin'. See this here. I take me a piece of paper and write down what I gonna do per night. Each and every number. I write it down there. For them sessions, sittin' on the bandstand, so many per. I had them down pat. We had 'em like that. Me and Frank Frost and them, if I say "Boom" he say "Bam."

BLUES MUSIC

Isn't blues music more about playin what you feel?
In a sense. But if at certain times I wanted to be precise, you understand what I'm sayin'. At certain times I want things to come out with clarity. I want to say "uhuhuh." Frank Frost used to sing in a sense, like he forget words, he hum over it. That what you talkin' about. Such as that. Backside of your mind you snatch up another something and put it on there.
What I'm talkin about there are no words to forget. If you're tryin' to do somebody else's song, and you're tryin to get it exact...
You can never do that.
Then you can forget the words, but if you're makin' up your own song ...
As you go along....
The way those old guys used to do it...then there's nothing to forget.
There's nothin' for you to forget.
Smitty, last night, he was makin' up songs.
Allright then, so what. We do that, we do that. I wish he'd keep me out of that goddam third position shit. (A.C. comes back in the room) He used to be out there on the floor jukin' and carryin' on, such as him, may have a sandwich in his hand and all that bullshit, some chittlins in a plate. Hey hold up, don't burn my fish up now.
Why don't you tell me somethin' about blues music?
I done told you as much as I know. Off into it. It's a feelin', innermost feelin'. Sometimes it's hurt, sometimes it's happiness. Hey, somethin' may go wrong with the situation at home or whatever, and it puts somethin' in here man, in your heart, that you have to express. Hey, behind me bein' a harmonica player, haven't you heard me do some notes you never heard me do before? How many times you heard me do 'em again? the same notes? Think about it.
Not too often.
See what I'm talkin about. This is what I'm sayin', see I have somethin' on my mind. It's runnin' through my head the same time, shit, try to get this situation like it's supposed to be. Not up to par with me right now. Damn, what I'm gonna do. Come out through here and onto the harmonica.

Harmonica Influences,Style

Who influenced you?
Like I say, my father. And I listened at Sonny Boy and them...
Walter.
Big Walter too! Now you notice my sound there now (refers to tape in background) That's Big Walter's sound there. Big Walter. That depth. Ohwoooohooh.
Horton?
Big Walter Horton. That's right.
Sometimes when you play it sounds like you're tryin' to say the same thing with the harmonica that the singer just got done sayin'.
Possibility. That's not right either. It's not right. Unless I'm takin' a solo. It's cool. But no, not along with him.

No I don't mean along with him. I mean the singer'll say....
Like he'll say "mmmhmmmhmm the squsquakmooowahwah." I'm gonna back him, I'm gonna do that.
It's like you answer him.
That's right. I can do that.
But then sometimes you make your own statement.
I lay back. 'Cause that's my time then.
So you had never played very much with Smitty before?
Smitty asked me, say "Can you do that third position?" "Hell yeah, I can do it." "Let me hear it." I hit it on the harmonica,"wanwahn," that was it.
He calls it cross note.
That's cross note. You got two positions other than the standard key on a harmonica. You got a cross and a third position. Now Walter play in third position alot of times. Little Walter. Third position is a high pitch. On the same harmonica, but it's got a umph to it more so than second position . Its a higher pitch. That's a third position. Second position is nothin but what like Jimmy Reed do all the time.I wanna do some singin'. I'm gonna do you some singin'. All that shit, I used to do.